Anthology booklet - rewriting history?

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Re:Anthology booklet - rewriting history?

Postby StevieD » Sat Dec 17, 2016 10:44 pm

I'm just sticking to the facts. The Facebook thread and this thread have sometimes gone off piste with "alleged" thoughts of people and wild abusive comments in Martyn's direction which may be peoples individual opinion but are just that. Opinion.
I'm not saying Philip does or doesn't think this way or that - I would hope he tells his manager what to do but sometimes that doesn't happen. I seem to recall Martyn said to me on 2 occasions that Philip and him were on good terms. I have the "opinion" that Simon doesn't want it to happen based on the "fact" that he told me this to my face.
And Martyn is well aware of Simon's attitude.
Personally I feel you are right - H17 / B. E. F can't fill the shepherds bush empire let alone Odeon or Birmingham but I respect that they are artists and attempt to do new material that was actually quite good. Reading the Facebook thread, Martyn was primarily pissed off with history being re-written. I don't agree with the anthology being a re-written history but I wasn't there he was so one would think he has half the story. I am not in the slightest bit surprised based on Simon's attitude. And I don't blame him one bit.

That doesn't stop him being a.......... Oh wait, that's how we got here. So I'll try to stick to the facts.

Oh and for the record I'm not a fan of the early stuff and I'm not keen to see them get together but would vigorously defend Martin if the sleeve notes didn't reflect what actually happened.
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Re:Anthology booklet - rewriting history?

Postby cs15 » Sat Dec 17, 2016 11:34 pm

I've met Simon too. He was.......... a prickly sort of a git but the fact is he's guided The League well over the last 20 odd years.

I've already stated that I wasn't impressed by the lack of League MK1 material in the Anthology. Whether intentional or not it's not good enougn but it's done. I fully expect at some point in the near future that Martyn will do something to hit back at The League and he is probably plotting his revenge as we speak. =D
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Re:Anthology booklet - rewriting history?

Postby Stig Olsen » Sat Dec 17, 2016 11:45 pm

Here is a fact: The band loves their manager, but can we please stay on-topic; David's book - including the sleeve notes.
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Re:Anthology booklet - rewriting history?

Postby SubHuman » Sun Dec 18, 2016 2:19 am

Stig Olsen wrote:Here is a fact: The band loves their manager, but can we please stay on-topic; David's book - including the sleeve notes.


That's a bit politically correct when we were having such fun, and what thread should this discussion be in? Surely you're not trying to stop an interesting discussion for the sake of an arbitrary rule. ;)

On a more serious note: it is on record that Philip and Martyn are on good terms now and have been for some time. I'm sure there is a very good reason why Philip doesn't want to tour as THL Mk1, we just haven't been told why. Although I'm sure various people on the forum will have their own opinion on this subject.

Oh, and there isn't that much we can say about David Buckley's book as it hasn't been published. We live in sure and certain hope of the resurrection.
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Re:Anthology booklet - rewriting history?

Postby cs15 » Sun Dec 18, 2016 11:07 am

Yeah, let's get back on topic.

David's book, good innit? I specifically like the bit with.....oh wait. :rolleyes:
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Re: Anthology booklet - rewriting history?

Postby Stig Olsen » Sun Dec 18, 2016 7:38 pm

SubHuman wrote:That's a bit politically correct when we were having such fun, and what thread should this discussion be in? Surely you're not trying to stop an interesting discussion for the sake of an arbitrary rule.
Yeah, not me at all, and yes - interesting discussion, but the whole debate of them touring as Mk. 1 again, if they get along etc. really belongs in a different thread - feel free to start one.
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Re:Anthology booklet - rewriting history?

Postby octopus » Sun Dec 18, 2016 11:25 pm

Regarding Martyn and his public throwing of his toys out of his pram on Fb,
I posted a few things Martyn didn't like tough shit,he posted things I didn't like and we both had every right to respond.This whole line that as Maryyn was in the band make him somehow immune from criticism is a joke.My comments to Martyn and some other posts were based on things I know for a fact.
I find it very sad he can't keep his opinions on this to himself,I would be disappointed if Philip decided to wade in on it,but he has dignity,Martyn makes himself look like a fool.I don't know him at all so wouldn't say he was a twat,but some of his comments over the years are twatish.
Quite why Ian Burden decided to take his side is beyond me,bitterness that the band managed to carry on without either of them possibly.
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Re:Anthology booklet - rewriting history?

Postby Marianna » Mon Dec 19, 2016 1:17 am

Exactly Octopus you both had a right to respond. It is very unprofessional of Martyn to go on a fan site and start whining about what the latest thing the league has done to him.He is a grown man of 60 not 20! As for Ian Burden taking his side, probably because he fell out with Phil too at some point ( he said that he did in some interview) and probably too for the reason you have just said.

The tones used have upset both Ian and Martyn. Better dry their eyes.
As for the non reunion of mk1, well who can blame Phil? The reasons are obvious very few people today remember Mk1 and it is pointless to do that it for that reason, and also 2 other members are awol! And why should Phil ditch the girls for a project that might not even work out? The only solution would be for Martyn to join the trio for a concert or too, but of course he wouldn't get the attention he craves.
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Re:Anthology booklet - rewriting history?

Postby Marianna » Wed Dec 21, 2016 12:10 am

CS15 wrote:
Could also argue that Martyn Ware wouldn't have had the fame he had without Philip! It's his voice and lyrics that brought The League the attention that they got. Would Glenn have brought them the same publicity? I seriously doubt it. Martyn is only a part of the original League he wasn't THE only part. Sometimes he gets too much credit. Shame that Ian and Adrian are often ignored because they choose to live their lives out of the public eye.

I think you have a very valid point there. While we may never know just Philip did where music writing was concerned, visually he was very important. Attention of the audience focuses on the lead singer for the most part and of course if he/she is good looking this will also help a band greatly. And Philip obviously fulfilled this criteria as Martyn admitted at the time of his recruitment that he looked like a pop star.

It is hard, if not impossible to imagine Glenn Gregory as lead singer of the league in any incarnation. His voice just wouldn't sound right on Dare , not to mention the Mk1 stuff and he did not have the Latin good looks of Phil. Phil's rich baritone voice was his trademark.
Lastly yes it is sad that Ian and Adrian are ignored if not forgotten. But then they don't have inflated ego of Mr Ware....
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Re:Anthology booklet - rewriting history?

Postby Stig Olsen » Wed Dec 21, 2016 12:27 am

What part of "please stay on-topic" didn't you understand, Marianna? I think the subject about Martyn is covered now (if not, start a new thread or continue in the Mk. 1 poll thread), thank you.
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Re:Anthology booklet - rewriting history?

Postby Marianna » Wed Dec 21, 2016 12:49 am

Stig, less of the sarcasm - your comment is quite insulting. I notice you didn't say anything to Octopus regarding Martyn Ware comments so why me.My English is actually very good. I only saw Cs15's post now so it would hardly make sense to put into another section where viewers would not even know what I was talking about.
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Re:Anthology booklet - rewriting history?

Postby StevieD » Wed Dec 21, 2016 1:58 am

It seems perfectly on topic to me......
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Re:Anthology booklet - rewriting history?

Postby SubHuman » Wed Dec 21, 2016 2:46 am

Zzzzzzzzzzzzz. Wake up at the back there!
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Anthology booklet - rewriting history?

Postby Stig Olsen » Wed Dec 21, 2016 9:10 am

Sorry, Marianna - should be more to the sarcastic side than the insulting - anyway, I see you point of split posts in different threads, but as the whole Martyn Ware FB battle and David Buckleys book may have some crossing lines, it really isn't on-topic, and as you point out yourself, if viewers came here to read about the book and found an intense Mk. 1 split discussion, then they really would get confused. And yes, Octopus should have been kicked in the arse too - and I also took part in the heated discussion, as I'm actually in full agreement with you both.

Anyway - made this thread - knock yourself out! :)
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Re: Anthology booklet - rewriting history?

Postby Marianna » Wed Dec 21, 2016 3:55 pm

Stig, it's Christmas. Not nice to talk about kicking anyone in the backside!
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Re: Anthology booklet - rewriting history?

Postby Stig Olsen » Wed Dec 21, 2016 4:14 pm

Marianna wrote:Stig, it's Christmas. Not nice to talk about kicking anyone in the backside!
I think he would take it as a Christmas bonus....
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Re: Anthology booklet - rewriting history?

Postby negative1 » Wed Dec 21, 2016 4:39 pm

i don't have the boxset (yet)... but does it seem like a lot of left out details in
the booklet?

can anyone point out what type of things.

i read the 'perfect pop' book, and it had a lot of good history points in it.

later
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Re: Anthology booklet - rewriting history?

Postby Marianna » Wed Dec 21, 2016 4:51 pm

Ha Ha. Stig, I think your bark is worse than your bite...
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Re: Anthology booklet - rewriting history?

Postby cs15 » Wed Dec 21, 2016 5:13 pm

Marianna, I think you need to get to know Stig's Danish sense of humour. Let's call him 'quirky'. Others would call him worse. =D
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Re: Anthology booklet - rewriting history?

Postby Stig Olsen » Wed Dec 21, 2016 5:28 pm

negative1 wrote:i don't have the boxset (yet)... but does it seem like a lot of left out details in the booklet?
well, first of all, the booklet is per definition an output from the band/record company, and should therefore be under their control, whereas a book by an independent could/should contain more detailed information - perhaps all the sleazy details and negative aspects of the history. I have no doubt that there has been some rewriting, but I find that quite natural based on the above.


Now, there are two versions of the booklet. The vinyl one has fewer pages than the CD/DVD Deluxe version. In both versions there are (in my book) percentage-wise the amount of photos and text about the Mk. 1 period which covers this short (and yes, crucial) period of time. More importantly, the music and videos are covered completely.

Martyn Ware has on a FB page (Human League / The Future 1977-1982) posted the following:
A sad attempt to rewrite a proud part of our mutual history.
This sparked a rather amusing discussion, and he at some point wrote this:
There is one glaring inaccuracy in both the book and the liner notes - Ian and I did not 'dump' the rest of THL - the opposite is true - and as an important part of my history I'm sad it is being brushed under the carpet as an historic curio in such an inaccurate way.
I have read the booklet rather quickly, so I could be wrong, but I couldn't find the passage saying what Mr. Ware implies - I did however find this piece of text which may be what he interpret as THL dumping Ian and Martyn:

The Human League imploded in still semi-mysterious circumstances in the autumn of 1980. Marsh and Ware recruited Glenn Gregory to form the British Electric Foundation and subsequently Heaven 17 and The Human League brand was left to, some might even say dumped on, Philip Oakey.

My personal opinion about this is the mind set of two young guys being guided by Bob Last - a man that has taken the responsibilty for the split and a person they both saw as a dad-figure-type who they trusted - so I see absolutely nothing wrong with the booklet notes.
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Re: Anthology booklet - rewriting history?

Postby Danny C » Wed Dec 21, 2016 6:53 pm

A bit odd that the booklet describes the split as being in "semi-mysterious circumstances" when the world and his dog knows by now that it was engineered by Bob Last as a way of forming two functional pop groups from one dysfunctional one.

That is certainly a detail that you would expect a serious biographer to know, which rather supports the idea that history is being glossed over. An explanation would certainly be welcome.
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Re: Anthology booklet - rewriting history?

Postby Marianna » Wed Dec 21, 2016 7:24 pm

DannyC- I think the term 'semi-mysterious' is apt because we are never going to know exactly what happened. No doubt Last played a part but there could have been more to the story
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Re: Anthology booklet - rewriting history?

Postby Marianna » Wed Dec 21, 2016 7:36 pm

cs15 wrote:Marianna, I think you need to get to know Stig's Danish sense of humour. Let's call him 'quirky'. Others would call him worse. =D



I think I get an idea of it. He's pretty harmless is our Stiggy and yes I agree it would be a Christmas bonus for octopus to get a kick in the backside from him - after all how many could say they have got a reprimand or whatever from the League's forum moderator?
It's never boring anyway - thanks to Stig and all.
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Re: Anthology booklet - rewriting history?

Postby Danny C » Wed Dec 21, 2016 7:46 pm

Marianna wrote:DannyC- I think the term 'semi-mysterious' is apt because we are never going to know exactly what happened. No doubt Last played a part but there could have been more to the story


Not really, Last came clean about the whole thing a few years ago.
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Re: Anthology booklet - rewriting history?

Postby cs15 » Wed Dec 21, 2016 8:48 pm

I'm quite amazed that Mr Ware hasn't yet released a 'tell all' book. Perhaps it's written and he's waiting for a publisher?? Only he knows. I'm sure it'd be an interesting read.

In the words of the 80s legend Marilyn, there are 3 sides to every story: yours, mine & the truth.

Amazing that 'the split' still provokes so much debate after 36 years. Had MK1 limped on without a 'hit single' on the 3rd album I am 100% sure that Virgin would have dumped them and they'd be but a footnote in music history.

Mr Last did us all a favour when he orchestrated 'the split'. We got one amazing band from it and a moderately decent band in Heaven 17 - for a few years anyway. Everyone's a winner. If we could just persuade Mr O. to do some 'early League' gigs with the current line up, then we could put all this to bed. Just 3 gigs Mr O. London, Sheffield & Liverpool would satisfy most fans that never got the chance to see The League MK1.
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